[WEBINAR] How winning brands are making themselves essential in a tight economy

How are brands winning in this tight economy? 

Hear their stories and find out what’s working by revisiting our live panel discussion with insights experts from Kimberly-Clark, The Hopewell Brewing Co., and Ipsos. Discover what strategies they are leaning on to prove to Americans that their products are essential. 

Be sure to visit our Insights to Activate portal exploring a range of timely topics, featuring impactful insights that you can activate tomorrow.

Discussion Transcript

Ben Meyerson:

Americans are struggling. Three in five of us, including half of higher income Americans, say they're only spending on daily necessities right now, posing a major threat for any sector that could be seen as an indulgence or even everyday staples that could be under pressure from private label. To hold their market share and gain more, the brands that get ahead will be the ones who recognize they're in a zero sum battle for consumers' dollars, competing not just in the aisle, but also with coffee shops, entertainment and beyond. Hi. Welcome to Insights to Activate. Ipsos' series focusing on some of the biggest topics facing the world today. I'm Ben Meyerson, Vice President of Marketing and Communications here at Ipsos. And I'll be your host as we talk about how your brand can win in this tight economy by showing that you're essential. We have a great group of experts here today from Kimberly Clark, Hopewell Brewing Company, and Ipsos.

Ben Meyerson:

All of them can help your business find its way through this challenging world. But before we get to our panel, I wanna talk about this financial crunch and why positioning your brand as a necessity is the key to survival. Today, many Americans say they don't have any disposable income. 37% of Americans say, "After paying my bills, I don't have any money left to spend on the things I want." While it's especially true of low-income Americans, it's also true in higher income households. Even 24% of those who make more than $100,000 a year say they don't have any money left over to buy the things they want. This huge portion of Americans is living in a zero-sum economy. We say that because without any money left over, they aren't just making trade-offs between brands on a shelf. They're choosing between buying a premium brand at the store or buying a cup of coffee on the way to work.

Ben Meyerson:

They're considering whether to cancel a streaming service or reduce their driving. And what they can't afford now, they're putting off or putting on credit cards, which are racking up record balances. So in this zero-sum economy where people say they don't have money left over after paying bills, how do brands make sure they're still reaching consumers' carts? The answer, make sure you're counted as a bill by customers. And I don't mean that negatively. I mean that as a necessity that they can't or won't cut out. Two in three Americans say they have favorite products that they aren't willing to switch. So how do brands solidify their place in Americans' lives? Let's meet our panel and get into it.

Sean Burress:

Sean Burress. I am a global senior director at Kimberly-Clark. I work on our Huggies brand. Often I tell people that I'm responsible for making sure that we understand what consumers want and need and expect from us and give them those experiences.

Jonathan Fritz:

I'm Jonathan Fritz. I'm a co-founder and head of sales at Hopewell Brewing Company. We're a craft brewery in the Logan Square neighborhood of Chicago, that operates a tap room on site and also distributes our beer around Illinois.

Mercedes Bender:

And I'm Mercedes Bender. I'm a principal at Ipsos Strategy three, which is Ipsos's in-house consultancy. We help brands figure out their growth opportunities between knowing what consumers need and what their key brand equity lies.

Ben Meyerson:

Great. Thanks so much for coming, everybody. I'm really excited to get into this. Obviously a really important topic to both our clients and also to people around the world. So Sean, I'm gonna start with you here, Sean. Your company's brands are pretty much the definition of essential. What are you seeing from people in this economy as they try to make their way through?

Sean Burress:

Well, thanks for that. You know, it's really interesting, we actually define ourselves as being in essential categories. Like we have products you probably don't wanna live without, things that absorb bodily fluids, so to speak. If you think about those are essential categories, so there'll always be some use of those categories. It's not like they're seasonal fluctuation. Now what we're starting to see is whether you call it the K economy or bifurcation. Yes, we often talking about premiumizing our categories, offering better offerings, but now we're starting to see growth in the value segments. And so we're having to reconsider, well, how do we split our resources, our offerings to those consumers who both want those premium experiences because we're a branded company, as well as those who are very conscious of every dollar and how do we make sure that every time they interact with one of our products or services, they're getting exactly what they wanted.

Sean Burress:

'Cause I think at the end of the day, it is almost critical that we deliver every time, right? So when your dollars are tight, you wanna make sure that you get exactly what you're wanting because each dollar matters.

Ben Meyerson:

And so when you talk about, how you're adjusting there, so in creating a products that meet the market there, so what are some ways in which you're doing that?

Sean Burress:

Yeah. So I guess you could think of it as we're looking at our categories, our brands, and we're seeing a lot of new brands pop up, with different propositions, right? Lower price points, but similar offerings. And so we're asking ourselves, should our brands play in those spaces? Or do we need new brands? Or is it about new partnerships? But at the end of the day, we're absolutely saying we believe that there is a consumer segment that in today's economy is being stretched, and we really need to understand the context in which they make decisions. And so we're spending a lot more time understanding those consumers and how they're making the decisions, what's motivating them, more so than just our typical offerings, our mainstream offerings. And it's requiring that we talk to people in places that we've may- maybe never done in the past, right?

Sean Burress:

We're a global brand, a $10 billion brand, and if you look across our enterprise, we're saying, "Hey, we need to understand these second tier cities. We need to understand some regions or people who shop in channels where you wouldn't traditionally see our brands." And so those white space opportunities are exactly where we have to kind of create a new perspective. It's essential for us to be where they are, because that's where we're seeing the growth.

Jonathan Fritz:

In new product development, are you looking at your existing customers and how are they shopping differently, or are you looking to attract new customers?

Sean Burress:

I think all of that. And, when you think about it, I'm sure this happens in the beer industry also, right? Someone who was buying your brand that has maybe switched to an alternative brand, why would they switch? What was the miss? Or what has changed, right? So as the motivations change, as the opportunities change, their experience, the context in which they make those decisions, you've got to pick up on that. So it isn't just knowing that they made a change, it's getting to the why behind the change, and that's what we spend a lot of time trying to understand. And sometimes it's actual behavior, sometimes it's perception that you're trying to tease out. Some, there may have been no physical, technical changes, but there's a perception that something's different here, especially in a post-pandemic world where we're looking for those experiences more than we're looking for products and services often.

Jonathan Fritz:

Yeah. And yeah, in some ways it seems so much, you know, selling beer compared to, you know, selling daily essentials. I envy people selling daily essential- essentials sometimes because it's like, well, people are gonna buy something in this category. It's less about growing category, I imagine, as it is to put yourself as, like, the unique thing.

Sean Burress:

I think that's fair. I think that's fair, but I'm sure -

Jonathan Fritz:

But I think that it probably makes it way harder for the same reason. <Laugh>

Sean Burress:

I was gonna say, yeah, like, new context changes every category,

Mercedes Bender:

Right? Yeah. And you raise a really good point about value, because I think it, it, you know, price is increasingly becoming disconnected from value for consumers in a lot of ways. So even just how people interpret what's es- essential - uh-huh. Is very different too in terms of how we used to view what essential was.

Sean Burress:

We firmly believe value has been redefined, and that would go across every category. What you value, is it about the actual dollar that you spend or the delivery of the intent of whatever you purchase, or was it about the context in which you experienced it or the moment in which you had it? You know, pricing can range from very high to very low. If you need a diaper and you're about to put your kid in the swimming pool for class, oh, you better have the right diaper in that moment and you're willing to pay for it. Yeah. Versus if you've got, stock up in your closet, the context changes, the value, and that moment, that occasion, becomes much more relevant to help you address the need, so.

Ben Meyerson:

You mentioned going to different cities, different, and looking at markets in a different way. So what, what kind of things are you learning from going to those, those different cities as you, do this kind of research?

Sean Burress:

Yeah. You know, I used to travel a ton, but I'd say my, my team now, when they come back from places like second tier cities in China or, or Southern regions of Brazil, and they're talking about where consumers shop, or looking at the makeup of a household where the baby crib is in the center of the house, and you're looking saying, "Well, normally, wouldn't that be in the bedroom where, where we sleep and it's all about rest?" But it's like, "No, this is the place of entertainment or engagement with the baby." So then what does that mean about the products or services and how they exist in that context? Anyone who comes over to visit, you're gonna see the product in the center of the space. So now it's that much more important that you don't have an accident, right? It's not behind the door.

Sean Burress:

It's not hidden. It's at the center. So that context alone changes the importance, the value, what's the visual experience that you've created, maybe more s - , considering the sensorial experience that you're creating because now baby's at the center of the household taking a nap. So what does that mean when people come to visit, right? That's a context for some of the learning that we're seeing that it's new to us. We haven't always seen that. And this is in particular cities when the teams are going in home or going in store, there's a lot of those little nuances coming back today.

Ben Meyerson:

And so getting that kind of research, you find it informs your strategy as you look for growth in ways that you might not be finding in the US by growing elsewhere? Absolutely. Do, do you find any of those learnings coming back to the United States as you refine your products here too?

Sean Burress:

Yeah. I mean, candidly, I would say I feel like the world's getting smaller and smaller, right? And so things that we see popping up in different countries, absolutely. There's context here. And often we're just not thinking about it. So you think about whether you're in the retail space or you're in the different countries or you're in different categories, analogous categories, there's something you can pick up on about human behavior or the human psyche that is always applicable, particularly in the US because we are often a microcosm of many cultures that are blending here. So there's a lot of opportunity to bring it back. We do it all the time. As a matter of fact, we send more people from the US to other countries just to investigate possibilities because the white space opportunities, more than we know, people are kind of similar. 

Sean Burress:

Everyone wants to do what's best for their baby or do what's best for themselves or have the best experience. So we often find lots of opportunity in that space.

Ben Meyerson:

Interesting. Yeah. As you look to like grow in this particular level of the economy where people are slimming down to the essentials, I mean, how is that, how is that changing your strategy? Are you finding that you're sticking to your basics and doing more of the same? Are you finding that you're getting questions about how to...

Sean Burress:

You know, I think it doesn't matter, right? Whether you're a small beer company focused on a local market, we're having to operate that way, right? Because where the growth is happening might be, "Hey, this is a small brand in a very minute area, regional area or a major city, and they're doing something unique." And that's where those learning opportunities on, wow, if they like that in inner city Chicago, would they like it in inner city New York or inner city LA? But at the same time, I think this whole value conscious mindset, it starts to permeate, right? So I may be strapped for cash, but I also communicate and share with others how I'm adjusting to that. So then my ideas start to create ideas across other markets or other segments of the population, because if it's true, it's true. And value is value.

Sean Burress:

So whatever is the brand that's creating the most valuable experience, that's the brand that wins. So we even look at ourselves and say, "Oh, well, who is buying us now? And what do they appreciate about us? So let's keep those elements." Or when they're looking at competitors and they're doing something slightly different and we're seeing growth, then we just put our growth mindset on, try to understand the why behind the what and bring that mentality to our... We do that. Like, that's a part of the job I think. We're, we're always looking to understand ourselves and the competitive set.

Ben Meyerson:

Yeah. Jonathan, I'll throw to you. We've been talking about beer a lot here, so I think it's your time to shine. But I mean, let's talk a little bit about your industry. The beer industry has faced years of challenges even before the economy started tightening wallets. How have you been winning battles with all these headwinds?

Jonathan Fritz:

You know, the beer industry is the same as really any other industry. It's the same as selling essentials like Sean is. It's making sure that you're doing stuff to the top quality possible and giving customers what they want. So like I said, we operate a tap room as well as distribute through CPG channels. And in our tap room, it's all about meeting people where they're at, providing a space that people want to spend time in. And for us, the sort of refrain has been you're trying to create experiences, especially in the tap room. So to do that, we're hosting a weekly chess club every Wednesday. And so people will come that don't even drink beer and so we're selling them other products, whether it's cider or soda, but they're using our space as a third space, so that they can be social with their friends.

Jonathan Fritz:

In the tap room, it's all about just making sure that you're just connecting with what people want out of, out of, out of their social experiences. And then on the distribution side of things, we've just been really zeroing down on our message of, communicating what the beer is to people. First, like, it, it's table stakes to be making the best possible beer that you can. You have to be doing that and improving your process at all times. You also have to be introducing your product to new people, inviting new people into the category. And so, a- as an example, we have a new brand, called Pocha. It's a Korean lager. It's been a runaway hit for us because we've been positioning it as, a food-friendly lager, that is, it's 100% malt. It's, very, high flavor, high, sort of malt texture and flavor to it, without getting too deep into the, the flavor descriptors.

Jonathan Fritz:

Really, at the end of the day, what it is, is this is the beer that's meant to be paired with big, bold flavors. And that's a pretty easy thing to describe to people, and people know that they want that as soon as they hear it. But it's, not necessarily being described through what I was <laugh> starting to go down all the malt and the hops and all of that is not necessarily what, what people wanna hear about their beer. They wanna hear what does it taste like? When do I drink this? , A- a- and, and then it, and then from there, like I said, it's table stakes to be making the best.

Ben Meyerson:

Yeah. It's good for food. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, you talked about your tap room, about your third space there. I mean, there've been, the craft beer has, has faced a lot of challenges over the last years. I mean, you opened 10 years ago, is that right?

Jonathan Fritz:

Yeah, we opened in 2016.

Ben Meyerson:

Congratulations. But, since then, a lot more breweries, have closed and opened. Is that correct?

Jonathan Fritz:

I'd have to check the numbers, but there are breweries closing every year. The national organizations will report out how many closed and how many opened. Luckily, there's still optimistic people going into those closed breweries to open up. I'm all for the idea that rising tide, lifts all boats. Yeah. We wanna bring new people into the category. We want the category to grow. And then they discover us through that interest. Yeah. But it has been a difficult couple of years, really since 2020 with COVID. That was the turning point where, at the time, we were selling about 50% of our product to bars and restaurants, which became, closed for almost a full year. So 50% of our distribution sales were gone overnight.

Jonathan Fritz:

So that was really difficult for a lot of breweries. It was difficult for us, but it also gave us an opportunity to, you know, rebuild from there and work on our distribution business selling through liquor and, l- liquor stores, grocery stores, and get more focused with our messaging there.

Ben Meyerson:

Yeah. I mean, so do you find that, I mean, in your brewery, it's, it's, it's very light filled. It's open. It's not, it doesn't fill that, that stereotype of a, of a brewery in an industrial park. Do you find that, having that kind of third space more openness, that that kind of has built, people's general feelings about the brand, that it serves as an ambassador as people go out in the world

Jonathan Fritz:

We opened with the taproom from day one on purpose because we wanted the tap room to operate as a brand moment for people to understand what kind of brewery we were. And we opened with the words in mind of “bright,” “clean,” and “inviting.” And since then, we've kind of focused our message into Hopewell exists to bring new people into the craft beer industry. We're trying to reach out to people who are not drinking craft beer now, and hopefully we're the first brewery that they really love in a category that they can then explore and try a lot of really interesting beers. I think beer's, beer's a great beverage that's, that's worth exploring. But, but that tap room being that light, inviting, welcoming space, especially when we opened 10 years ago, was really unique in the Chicago market.

Jonathan Fritz:

And, it definitely went a long way to describing what our brand is to people, if that's what they see about us, is it's light, clean, inviting, you know, it's welcoming to people who are not necessarily, like, the archetype of craft beer drinker. Yeah.

Ben Meyerson:

And so, so that, I mean, really that, that plays in well to occasions, right? Like, you're creating, you're creating products that can meet consumers where they are and can grab onto them in that particular moment. Do you find, like, you mentioned that you've, that you've done well in the, in more recent years?

Jonathan Fritz:

Yeah, I can point to a specific brand. We used to have our winter seasonal, was Stay Frosty was the name of it. It was, you know, technically a mix between a Vienna and a Bach lager, which doesn't mean much to most people. And the name Stay Frosty was just sort of a fun wintery s- sort of name, and we, we would sell it from October through the end of January. Last year, we updated the label, just called it Winter Lager. Same exact liquid, but, which, which is great liquid, but the occasion being put in front of someone like, "Hey, it's winter, this is what you drink, you know, if you're outside sledding, if you're out doing whatever, this is the beer that's made for that occasion." The sales went up 30, 35%.

Mercedes Bender:

What I appreciate, too, about what you all are doing, in addition to the product innovation and being very thoughtful about all of that, is that you all have maintained this, alignment with this third space and creating belonging and really creating this need that's almost, you know, aligns very much with the, the cons- consuming of the, the beer itself. And I think that probably, I would assume, especially coming out of 2020 all around in 2016 where a lot of brands were starting to see that there was a need for human connection and people wanted that, that was something that was always inherently in your brand, so you were able to kind of tap into that.

Jonathan Fritz:

Absolutely. And, and we doubled down on that even more coming out of COVID when our taproom was closed. Our tap room was closed for a full year in 2020, and then when we reopened, we really tried to put emphasis into how are we presenting our beers? And you, you, you mentioned food pairings with beers. There's also glass, vessel pairings with beers. We pour in, we have 10 beers and we pour in eight different kinds of glasses. We're also pouring in different ways out of different kinds of faucets, where some beers, we purposefully have a lot of foam on it because that matches the style and you get a lot more aroma out of it that way. So we really tried to double down on being the experts and the best place that you're gonna get Hopewell Beer poured is in our tap room.

Jonathan Fritz:

And we can use that as an educational opportunity to, you know, explain to people that portion of drinking beer and enjoying beer. But you're, you're, you're absolutely right that, that, that's a big focus for us, is that the taproom is, that's our biggest brand moment, that's our best opportunity to win someone over.

Ben Meyerson:

Have you found that, traffic to your taproom has, has stayed static as you have gone through the years? Do you, like, how does that, how do you monitor what's going on there and, how are you seeing it progress?

Jonathan Fritz:

Good question. The two big metrics we track on taproom are, checks and then check size. So it's how many people are you, serving in a day, and then how much is each individual person buying? , Our high point in terms of number of visitors was in 2019. You know, we've never, most bars have not come back to that. People changed how they experienced bars after 2020. Bars are not open as late as they used to be. It's al - it's almost impossible, we're in Chicago right now, to find a bar that has food after 11:00 PM, just because people are not staying out as late. That said, people are also going out a little bit earlier or maybe taking an afternoon call at a, work call at a brewery and, and having a, a pint of water or something.

Ben Meyerson:

<Laugh> 

You would never tell. 

Jonathan Fritz:

There's, you know, there's multiple things to, to be thinking about there. We're not gonna be as absolutely slammed as we were before COVID, but through creating a better experience and, and, and, and, and making sure we're putting more emphasis on how we're presenting our beers to people, we've, we have seen check size increase. So people are staying for one more beer than they used to. So that doesn't really answer your question, I'm realizing. No. But I do think that, I think that there's just a lot of different things that you can do to continue to, continue to grow, even if it's not just getting new people in. But we are also, in addition to that, trying to get new people in, because if, in the bar industry, how it tends to work is that people have their sort of rotation of places that they go to.

Jonathan Fritz:

You know, if you have a friend coming into, into town, you're probably gonna bring them to one of five places. And so our goal is to add more people that we are one of five places for. So that's why we're throwing specific events to in- invite people into our tap room, hope they have a good time, and then, but become a place that they come every two months.

Ben Meyerson:

So I guess what I'm getting at here is, like, do you feel like that, that experience makes you sticky, right? As we enter this period where you're no longer facing just, you know, challenges in drinking and, and how drinking patterns are shifting overall, but in, when people's wallets are tighter, that sense of belonging, do you think it is or will continue to drive, drive that kind of stickiness that gets you to be, to tie back to the, to the core here? I mean, to make you a necessity. I mean, obviously that's the goal. 

Jonathan Fritz:

I definitely think that, you know, beer's not vitamins, but beer - <laugh>...

Jonathan Fritz:

I think is a necessity for a lot of people's buying decisions because, you know, where it's a thousand year old beverage. There's a really strong his- Historical connection. You know, I can get really romantic about beer. It's like you're connecting with your ancestors. This is pretty much the reason for civilization in my opinion, is that, you know, that there's evidence that that's why agriculture started, is to, to make sure that people could have consistent beer in their lives. So I think that, that, you know, people are connected to it in a way that, is important to have that social interaction. Beer's a really unique beverage in that it, the time it occupies while you're drinking. You know, having two beers is two hours with your friend. You know, it's not like having shots of liquor or something like that. It's a really social beverage.

Jonathan Fritz:

It's a bet - beverage of moderation. And the way that we can fit into that is by doing our best to put something in front of someone that they are gonna look at the menu, not feel excluded because they don't understand what's going on, with the style or, or, or what the beer's gonna taste like. And, do our best to make sure that however we're presenting the beer to someone, when they drink it, that's what they were expecting to get. Yeah.

Ben Meyerson:

So Mercedes, as part of our in-house consulting team here at Ipsos, you get the fun job of helping companies solve these problems across all different types of industries. Are there any recurring roots to success that you're seeing that other companies can learn from?

Mercedes Bender:

Yes. I would say that some recurring routes to success are really understanding a little bit more of consumer psychology, behavioral science. Like a lot of these projects, recent projects that we worked on, we're doing it as strategists, but we're not doing that alone. We're bringing in a lot of people who know exactly how consumer behavior is changing. Some of the nuances of consumer behavior is becoming a little bit more fragmented in terms of what people want, their individual needs. So understanding those are more deeply. And brands who are doing that are finding ways to really break through and understand consumers in a way that really allows them to communicate with them in a way that is more resonant.

Sean Burress:

I couldn't agree more, Mercedes. Like we talk more and more about the consumer journey and key moments and that context. But when you're dealing with big brands, because I'm hearing you describe a number of brands in different categories, we often struggle with, "Hey, I have this brand. It's what I've always meant. And now you're asking me to consider changing my brand," which we've built this whole business on a particular brand. How are you helping companies tackle that?

Mercedes Bender:

Well, I think that's a longer term. You know, like there's no, like, you know, you can't just cut over and do that. You don't wanna alienate consumers. You know, so there's a lot of loyalists, you wanna try to keep them. I think a lot of that has to do with a lot of the marketing execution and channels in which you try to target different people. I think that's the best way to be able to hit that nuance. But we would never say, you know, completely do a, a complete overhaul, especially for a large legacy brand because it obviously is working.

Sean Burress:

Love that thinking.

Jonathan Fritz:

Yeah. That's like new Coke. Yes. Right? <Laugh> That was, everybody learned from that. <Laugh>

Ben Meyerson:

Yeah. Well, maybe they'll bring it back. But, you mentioned equity and, and brand health tracking here. Th's a, that's a big area for us here at Epsos, right? I mean, we have a huge brand health tracking, department that works in these spaces. And, you know, as we talk about this and so much of the conversation is about brands making sure they're sticky by tracking their equity, right? So I mean, like, I mean, how big a factor is that, just making sure that you are tracking what, what your, longstanding consumers think of you?

Mercedes Bender:

It's so important. It's so important because these aren't just, you know, these aren't just transactions. These are relationships that consumers have with these brands. So you really have to see through tracking how they are evolving, because consumers are adapting a lot. I mentioned a little bit about like, you know, we've been in these, tough inflationary times before. And like one of the key differences that we're seeing now is that, you know, before brands were figuring out like, okay, how do I, you know, minimize, you know, address this disruption, but not, you know, affect the brand equity that I've built? And what we've seen since then, I think it's compounded a little bit because since, you know, we've talked a lot about price elasticity, we talked about how to like communicate price increases, but at the same time, consumers have evolved and eva - adapted too.

Mercedes Bender:

So they're becoming a lot more, discerning in terms of their, their, their shopping, their choices, the trade-offs that they're making. And so to be able to track some of those changes, how people are responding is gonna be really important so that you can continue to meet where they are as a brand.

Ben Meyerson:

Critical. Yeah. Sean, I wanna talk to you. I mean, obviously as a, a big multinational brand, I mean, so what are you doing in terms of, brand health tracking and like how, I mean, how are you using that to inform how you position yourself and, and, and keep those really crucial customers? Yeah.

Sean Burress:

I appreciate that question, Ben, because more than ever, I think the affinity to brands is shifting, especially with younger consumers coming into categories who there may be some nostalgia, there may be things that people want passed down from generations, but there's so much of our younger consumer that wanna define themselves and right and have self-identity. And so we often ask ourselves, is it really our brand to define or do we let the consumers define that brand? But if nothing else, we wanna know who we are and where we stand in consumers' lives and we wanna maintain the positive and we wanna adjust and fix in the areas where what we think is happening is there's new context, right? There are new competitors, there are niche brands. And I think we cannot, cannot ignore the channel story. Retailers have their own brands now.

Sean Burress:

And so as they're introducing brands and they have access to the same consumers, they're the front line often, they can reposition themselves in ways that bigger brands have to fight to do. They can literally, you talk about, come in my tap room, experience something with me. Oh, let's define that for you. And so we ask ourselves often, what does it mean if I'm going to exist in a particular channel where a particular shopper has a particular mindset, they have a particular need, a particular lifestyle, and is my brand the national brand and that's all it's supposed to be or does it need to adjust to the context of the individuals who want an experience and wanna have a relationship with your brand? So more and more, I think we find ourselves in this position of yes, we know who we are, we know what we've stood for, but we have to be open to evolve our brand.

Sean Burress:

And in some cases we may need a new brand. And so the, these are questions that we're asking constantly. And I do think with the, what we call insurgent brands, really small brands, doing some, some very unique things, connecting with individuals in a very unique way, driving value for the whole category, reinvigorating new people, reinvigorating new dollars, the question is, do we wanna play in those same spaces? Or do we wanna allow that to be a way of growing our categories, growing the experiences that consumers have by giving them new brands and new, new, new opportunities? So we spend a lot of time in that space. I can tell you this value consumer, this value mindset, like we're really talking a lot about, well, what does that look like for our big multinational brands? And I think the other thing is many of our retailers are saying, Hey, our shopper really wants X, Y, Z, and we have to adhere to, well, if that's true and this shopper is saying, I go here because I want these types of brands or these things, brands that they stand for similar values that I have, do I wanna play in that space and how will I adjust and what does that look like?

Sean Burress:

I'm gonna give this person what they need because ultimately that's why we're here. We're here to serve consumers, we're here to give them what they're looking for. And I think that's the only way you drive growth, especially in tough economic times. You've gotta have ears on the ground listening to what consumers want and then be willing to adjust where appropriate or start something new. That's,

Jonathan Fritz:

I mean, the, the, the main difference that I'm thinking of my business compared to yours is how, I'm forgetting the business term for it. I think it's expandability of a product where -

Sean Burress:

Expandable consumption.

Jonathan Fritz:

You are selling the same amount. So it would, it's less of, it, it seems like it would be less important to sell a large quantity to someone because they're gonna use the same amount no matter what. Whereas in beer, we can start expanding into 12 packs or, or, or, or lar - or case packs because the more someone has in their fridge, the more they're gonna just choose yours because they already have it. And, and that's generally where our brand growth has come from is getting the opportunities of just like, make sure we're the one that someone chooses to bring home, because they're gonna drink more of it if they, if, if they have it in front of them.

Mercedes Bender:

And what we saw that — I mean, packaging has such a big influence on those moments too, because people are introduced to brands based off of what, you know, that, what packaging that comes in that serves at the time. So like for breakfast, like someone might wanna, and I'm not saying people should drink beer for breakfast —

Jonathan Fritz:

I wouldn't say that either.

Mercedes Bender:

But if you want to, but you might want a smaller can or a smaller serving, like you have to figure out like what are, how, how to introduce people in your brand through that packaging.

Jonathan Fritz:

And we're about to launch a brand new, our Korean lager’s right now in, 16 ounce cans in a four pack. And that's our standard, that's a craft beer size, you know, pretty much only people who drink craft beer are buying 16 ounce pint cans, four packs. But that's not a size that you see at like mass grocery — it is really channel specific. So we're about to launch that same brand in six pack, 12 ounces, which is way more, you know, people who don't drink beer are gonna buy that size for their barbecue. 

Sean Burress:

I love what you said and I think something, between Mercedes talking about the niche brands or the niche opportunities that exist. And then when you talk expendable consumption, right, you only need so many diapers that you're technically gonna use and dispose of, or so many pads or so many paper towels. But at the end of the day, if you've got something that's especially relevant for Christmas - uh-huh. You've got something that is espec- especially relevant at the birthing moment, if you have something especially relevant for a key occasion, a key moment where it's not just the typical opportunity, you see a lot of expansion in that space. Oh,

Jonathan Fritz:

That's really interesting. And that kind of relates to what you're talking about with the baby crib being like a centerpiece. Yes. Are you starting to see the same thing we do in beer of having like a winter, a summer, a spring, a fall sort

Sean Burress:

Of like design on it? Absolutely. Think of it this way. You're having a new baby and I'm gonna gift you something very essential. Mm. Yeah. I can give you the plain white double pack bulk size that's gonna last you six months or I can give you three that you'll remember for the rest of your life and you'll post it everywhere you go and you'll say, "Do you remember that day when you were born and what you gave me?" That's interesting. That's expandable consumption opportunities in most of our essential categories. But in tough economic times, you've gotta be very specific about how you can bring that forward. 

Ben Meyerson:

I think that's a great place to throw to some questions from our audience here. Let me see if we have a few that have come in. Okay. This one I think is gonna be for you, Sean. And you talked about this a little bit earlier, but, what should companies do or what should, how should big brands approach private label? It seems like it's kind of gaining steam as a choice for consumers.

Sean Burress:

That's an interesting comment, let alone question. I'm a firm believer that private label is almost disrespectful. When I think of brands, what we say is a private label brand is simply a brand, right? And consumers don't think about who owns the brand. They're thinking

Ben Meyerson:

So it's disrespectful to the private label -

Sean Burress:

To, to the brand itself, right? The brand itself, yeah. Pick any brand, and if I'm not mistaken, 100% of what we call private label, those brands are owned by retailers often. And many of us have great relationships with brands like Kirk Illin or Up and Up and, you know, make, make your choice. And not only do we have a great relationship with the brand, they're tracking their equity. They know what they mean to consumers. They're gonna make sure they're readily available. They're in distribution. They have a better shot of giving a better experience every time because they're owned by the retailer, which is the front line where we experience our brands for the first time. So imagine a world where we talk about them as private label, but they actually dominate the consumer experience introduction to the category, and then we are kind of the pillar of the category, but they're defining or reevaluating or re-imagining the experience.

Ben Meyerson:

The we in this case being Kimberly Clark. 

Sean Burress:

Yeah. You may be the pillar, right? Whether it's when I was sitting on Cheerios, you come down the cereal aisle, we're gonna dominate that aisle. But at the same time, if there's a retailer brand that says, "You know what? Cheerios is missing the true occasion, the true flavor, the true experience people are looking for, so we're gonna throw a end aisle display up and put our own brand that we probably spend way more than any one brand working in one category because our brand's gotta work across multiple." , our definition, our experience, we can drive consistency across a variety of categories and give proof points and experiences because we own the in-store experience, right? Like we own the context in which brands exist. So I say we in the sense of whoever's a brand owner. I say we in the sense of big brands that may not have as much power on defining the experience alone.

Sean Burress:

And we're seeing a lot of growth in these retailer brands. Like when we talk about insurgent brands, they might be small brands that only exist in a retailer, and that's a game big manufacturers can play. And I think we have to consider that. I do believe that, call it private label, you go to a country like, the UK and many categories are 60% private label. No, it's just a bunch of brands that consumers have built relationships with that are being redefined and reintroduced and they own the context of where you experience the brand. I think at times there's a competitive advantage that if we don't acknowledge it, we miss out on those growth opportunities. I think big, big brands have to consider context. And the retail environment and that space between sales and marketing have gotten closer and closer. We should stop ignoring the fact that we have a trade budget and an ANCP budget.

Sean Burress:

It's dollars that we use to create experiences for consumers because I can be sitting and learning about a brand at the same time as buying that brand from my couch. So in a world where that is reality, those retailer brands know that experience. They know how to distribute. They know how to get it there. They know where to place it on the shelf. And those of us who own brands that maybe haven't had those experiences, we miss out on some of those opportunities. That's why when I hear, you know, you guys, Jonathan, talk about, "We got a tap room, come and experience it with us." Like see it in the context of which you might actually have a moment and we're gonna build with you. Like that's rich learning that you wanna bring into your offerings when you start to distribute it in different retail environments.

Sean Burress:

Absolutely. Like it doesn't get any better than that. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Meyerson:

And so how do you see Kimberly Clark, and, and your brands, playing against that? Yeah. So I mean, like, they're in the same, you're in the same space - Yeah, yeah. And, and you're, you're occupying different, different places in the consumer mind, right?

Sean Burress:

Yeah. Look, I, I can't say anything, but I think you're gonna start to see some, some fun stuff. Okay. I think a lot of essential categories, especially big brands that have dominated, you're gonna start to see fun like you've never seen before. I'm excited about some things we're doing in the, in the US here. Brands that just have meaning and value, where you're gonna see them offered in a specific retailer with the intent of that specific shopper and the context or the season in which they exist is gonna be so relevant to the moment and what's happening in our lives, you're gonna say, "Why haven't they done that before?”

Ben Meyerson:

I gotta be honest with you, Sean, my third child just got out of diapers and I'm done buying diapers for the first time in eight or nine years, but now I wanna go back to diapers. You sold me right here. I wanna be part of the Kimberly Clark diaper experience.

Sean Burress:

I'm gonna miss out on it too, right? Yeah. Like my daughter is, is... When I joined Kimberly Clark, she was born like two days before I joined and it was a great ride. Now I wish some of the things we're gonna be putting in the market are things that were available just so I could give her those things. <Laugh> I'm gonna be watching. We'll see. Yeah. Fun times.

Ben Meyerson:

Yeah. Jonathan, so we talked about this a little bit earlier too. So you do, not quite private label, but I mean, you do, co-label some of your beers with particular restaurants. 

Jonathan Fritz:

I would call them collaborations. Yeah. So we have some specific collaborations with certain, restaurant groups, where we'll work together on beer design, work together on label, and we use it as a way to deepen our relationship with those, restaurant groups. You, you, you talk about our tap room being a great opportunity, to, give people our brand for the first time. Really, broadly, on-premise consumption of alcohol, is the opportunity to generate trial. So we have really deep relationships that we've had for 10 years with these restaurant groups. And it's a fun thing to, to work on something together. We're, we're, we're still selling our primary beers. You know, we still have our core ride or die pale ale, our pills, the Korean lager, that we're selling to them. But on top of that, we've got a second sort of placement with them where we're selling something that we've designed together and they feel more, more ownership over.

Ben Meyerson:

Yeah. So it makes you sticky in a different way, right? It's like instead of being sticky with, with the consumer from your experience. I mean, and winning the battles that way, I mean, you're now making yourself sticky with B2B and with those restaurants.

Jonathan Fritz:

Because, by law, in the US, we really have... Our biggest customer is our distributor. So we're thinking about three different sales every time we sell beer to distribution. We're thinking about our sale to the distributor. We need to be at the top of their priority list in a certain part of the category. We're thinking about our sale to the retailer. The retailer needs to have us on the shelf or, or at their bar. And then we're thinking about the, the sale to the consumer. But that, you know, it's, it's, it's one more step than a lot of other industries have where there's a mandatory single distributor in a geography. So you need to be really, really in lockstep on your strategy with the distributor first, then retailer, then consumer.

Ben Meyerson:

All right. Well, one more question here. I think everybody can take this one. This is a fun one. So we talked about, things that might be trade-offs, that people might trade off. But what's one product or service that might be on the chopping block for some people, but you personally love and would never trade? Mercedes, let's start with you here.

Mercedes Bender:

Mine is my skincare regimen, because no matter what happens, no matter what trends come and go, I have to live in the skin until the last day. So there's no transplant for it, so I will never give that up. I will always consider that an essential.

Jonathan Fritz:

That's a good one. I mean, for me, if, if we're throwing it around the horn, obviously beer, but, but, for me specifically, I would say going to the movies. I just love the experience of going to a movie theater, getting locked in, watching the new thing that you've never seen before, something totally new to you. That's just one of my favorite things to do. Hmm.

Sean Burress:

Yeah, you know, the number one thing I couldn't give up is, and if you know Chicago, we've got a beautiful lakefront, and it got me through the pandemic. Just in my car along Lake Shore Drive, having a moment to just look out and see nothing but water, it gives me a freeing sense. It makes me think about the future, think about the possibilities, and to do it in my car, I think I'll always want that. <Laugh> It's something I won't

Ben Meyerson:

Give up. You splurge. You, you'll go off for that drive by yourself, right? You don't, you don't want to hit the bus.

Sean Burress:

Cannot do it. Yeah. Cannot do it.

Ben Meyerson:

Yeah. I mean, I'll jump in. I mean, for me, I've got kids. Thanks for diapering them, Sean. I appreciate that. <Laugh> But, I mean, for me, so much of what I try to do in my free time is just entertain them and keep them alive and entertained and also keep me sane. And I feel like for me, one of the main ways I love to do that is museum memberships. So we have more than one museum membership, that we go to. And it's just, it's such a valuable thing to be able to go to one place and entertain kids for an afternoon and keep them happy-ish. 

Sean Burress:

And great museums here too.

Ben Meyerson:

Here too. Exactly. Yeah. And, you know, and, to have more than one, then we can switch it up. Lucky to be able to do that, but it's a treat to be able to do that.

Mercedes Bender:

If you only had to keep one, which one would it be?

Jonathan Fritz:

Oh, that's a good question.

Ben Meyerson:

The Museum of Science and Industry. The Griffin Museum of Science and Industry, because they have an attached parking garage, so I can go there in the middle of the winter and not have to go outside.

Jonathan Fritz:

That's a good one. Yeah. That's a good one. Man, I wish you went first because I would've stolen yours. <Laugh> The Art Institute is essential. I love being able to be in the member lounge and even just working from there is, is great.

Ben Meyerson:

Oh, nice. Very cool. All right. Well, I think we're at time. So I just wanna thank you all so much for taking the time out of your day to come here. It's such a great conversation and, everybody's perspectives here, I think, really... It seems like we're coming from different places, but they really mesh together really nicely. So thank you all so much. 

Jonathan Fritz:

This is a lot of fun. Thank you for having me.

Ben Meyerson:

And thank you all for joining us. If you haven't yet, you really should read our companion report, Winning the Wallet War, which shares more great, fresh data on the economy and how brands can lock in loyalty in a tight market. And in just three weeks, make sure you come back to explore what's changing, how people shop, and what it means for growth. With the new issue of our award-winning magazine What the Future, focus on the future of shopping. I'm Ben Meyerson, and this is Insights to Activate with Ipsos.